Ivan Karamazov, the tormented doubter, has written the following "poem" (that's what he calls it). In it, he imagines that Jesus comes back to Earth, during the Spanish Inquisition. (Not for the Second Coming, but just for a visit.) The Grand Inquisitor is not amused.
Go over to Edmodo to find a file with this chapter. Comment here.
(If you want more background on the Spanish Inquisition, follow the link above. But don't go here, or here. They really won't help you at all.)
Much like the 4th chapter, I had a hard time following what was going on. I wish that I had more information on the previous chapters to further understand the relationship between Ivan and Alyosha. Yet, I think Ivan's tale in this chapter was quite interesting.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to point out two passages I found very interesting. They are on page 8.
"Thou didst promise them the bread of Heaven, but, I repeat again, can it compare with the earthly bread in the eyes of the weak, ever sinful and ignoble man? And if for the sake of the bread of Heaven thousands shall follow Thee, what is to become of the millions and tens of thousands of millions of creatures who will not have the strength to forego the earthly bread for the sake of the heavenly?"
When I read this quote, it really made me consider what Ivan was trying to say. Clearly, the bread he refers to is the communion given at a church's mass as the body of Christ. That gives this the religious view of it. Yet, it is more of a metaphor to talk about people who only see earthly possessions in life. Many people do not take the time to appreciate and strive for the certain gifts like family, love, and happiness. It reminds me of the familiar saying, "money can not buy happiness." This quote really drives home that point that many people do not see the world that way. God tells us to follow his teachings of pushing away earthly pleasures for "the sake of the heavenly." As mentioned, the majority of people do not live that way. Overall, I think this passage provoked a lot of thought and had a good message.
In the same paragraph, the previous question asking what happens to the people who do not follow God is answered. "They are sinful and rebellious, but in the end they too will become obedient." I thought this was powerful as well. It is saying that a lot of people will take the wrong path in life. Yet, they are eventually going to learn why it is wrong. That's when they fix it and become "obedient." This sort of shows how the Grand Inquisitor acts throughout the story. He is not accepting of Jesus, for he believes that he is an imposter. He doesn't believe Jesus could actually be there. He takes Him as a prisoner. Yet, in the end he realizes his actions were wrong. Jesus, God in human form, does not punish the Inquisitor's sins, for he simply accepts them. He walks up to the Inquisitor and kisses him, showing his undying love for everyone, even the sinful. This relates to the quote by showing how the sinful Inquisitor turns around his views and lets Jesus go free. I thought it was very clever to have this quote because it acts as a moral in the tale Ivan is telling.
Ivan is a very interesting character, yet I can't figure out what his own views are. It seems as though he is contradicting everything he says about God and continuously changing his own views throughout telling the story. Does anyone else see this as well?
What I find most interesting about Christ kissing the Grand Inquisitor was that there was no source for that kind of affection, especially since Christ was arrested and thrown in jail. Christ's action really shows a pure kind of love and how people can be loved even with faults. In this day in age, that kind of love is not really seen, and it was nice to see that kind of affection in such a dismal time period.
DeleteI found it incredibly sweet how Alyosha used the same action as Christ with Ivan.Alyosha is like Christ in the way that he listened to Ivan rant on about his views of God and his poem of the Grand Inquisitor and he accepts his brother for all that he is. It really shows that even though Ivan is a very troubed man with many internal conflicts, his brother loves him and will support him in whatever he decides to do. It is nice seeing the love between brothers especially after reading all of Ivan's and the Grand Inquisitor's dismall views of man and life.
Hey Martha-
DeleteI also found myself drawn to your second quote, but not for quite the same reason. How he says that people will “in the end…be obedient” really stood out in my mind for some reason. It’s not until I look back now and read your comments on the passage that I realized why.
It is out of place, almost hypocritical, when it comes to the virtues and beliefs of Christ and God. He forgives the Inquisitor for his actions and kisses him, as you said, but then believes that everyone will be obedient. In my opinion, that sounds kind of egotistical, as if he is full of himself, and deserves to be worshiped.
I’m not trying to say that Christ is not worthy of being worshiped, not at all. I’m just saying that it does not follow what he stands for, and that’s why it caught my attention.
And to answer your question, I see Ivan as the Devil’s advocate. He explains both sides to a story, fully elaborating on each idea and providing solid examples for each perspective. As a character, I can see how you see him as kind of confused, but I don’t think he’s there to play off of the other characters, necessarily, but rather the reader. He provokes thought into the mind of the reader, because he changes so often, and makes you think about what you believe to be right.
Martha, I like the passages you picked out because they really made me think about what Ivan was trying to say. I think Ivan was trying to express his view of man in general. With the first quote he's saying that most people would rather have food than starve and proclaim their love to God. With the second quote he's saying that some will try to fight the temptation and follow Christ's example, but in the end they will break and give in.
DeleteIvan is a very complex character that we know little about. I think he is trying to look at religion objectively. In his poem, the grand inquisitor tells Jesus everything he did wrong and why. I think the explanations, in a way, seemed rational in the sense that anyone trying to gain power would do things such as how the Inquisitor said it should have been done. Overall, I think Ivan knows a lot about religion, but does not believe in it and prefers to think about it in an objective perspective.
Becca, I think the kiss at the end of the chapter between Alyosha and Ivan really sums up their relationship. They still love and care about each other even though there share very different views on religion. It's easy to hate someone that doesn't share the same beliefs as you do, but it's very difficult to love someone that has conflicting views to yours. I agree with you that it was nice to see their affection after some very heavy conversations.
DeleteThere's the "bread of heaven", and then there's "our daily bread", which is not the world of materiality, but simple sustenance. And for a lot of people on our planet, now and throughout history, that's been a real struggle.
DeleteThe Grand Inquisitor tells Jesus that you made the test too hard, and we (the organized church) had to step in. And there's no place for you anymore. (The Inquisition is not generally seen as one of the high points of Christianity.)
Overall, I found "The Grand Inquisitor" fascinating and I'm happy to say not as disturbing as "The Rebellion". The language of Ivan's poem was a bit tedious and confusing to read, but I found that once you got into it, you could understand what was going on.
ReplyDeleteWhat I found most fascinating about Ivan's poem was the Grand Inquisitor's views of freedom of will. It was interesting to me to see that he believed that freedom was a burden, that man couldn't handle it and suffered because they held this freedom. He actually condemned Christ for rejecting Satan's three temptations (I didn't realize the biblical reference to Jesus fasting in the desert with the devil tempting him until I googled it; I guess that is what you get for not attending church). Part of me agrees with the Grand Inquisitor, that in order to protect people, freedoms must be sacrificed. That is part of being a society; people give up a few of their freedoms and follow the laws so that there is order. But in our society, people do have individual freedoms, and here is where I disagree with the Grand Inquisitor. People can handle the burden of freedom of choice, and knowing what is right and what is wrong. People don’t suffer because of their freedom to choose, they suffer when people interfere with that freedom, which is why the Spanish Inquisition was a horrible time of suffering for the many people who wouldn’t follow the Catholic Church.
Becca, I agree that the story was a bit difficult to read, but once I got into it, I could understand it. I also agree with what you said about having to sacrifice certain freedoms to maintain safety. I disagree with what you said about people not suffering from the freedom to choose what is right and wrong. I disagree because everyone's perception of right and wrong is different. If a murdering thinks it's right to kill, then that is his choice to think that, but that doesn't mean someone else thinks it's right and people suffer from people's perception of "right" like in this example. I think that in society, we are trained to think that certain things are "right" and other things are "wrong" so in a way, do we really have the freedom to choose what is right or what is wrong?
DeleteI took me a little while to get used to words like "Thy", and "didst", but after a couple pages I got more used to it. I agree that it was a bit tedious to read. You definelty couldn't space out while reading it because each sentence was jam-packed with important stuff!
DeleteI agree with Becca's view of freedom. I think the Grand Inquisitor got it wrong when he was talking about freedom. The countries that are progressing the least in the world today are the one where the citizens have the least freedom. The United States allows it's citizens alot of freedom, and the U.S. is argueable that most influential and powerful country in the world.
Remember the prime objective of people according to the key characters in this passage -- to live a live morally adequate to reach the Kingdom of Heaven. How are we doing with our freedom under that standard?
DeleteI found Chapter 4 much easier to read than Chapter 5. It took me awhile to get into “The Grand Inquisitor” because you had to read every little detail and there were a lot packed into it. Ivan begins with telling a story about how Christ came back to Earth in Seville, Spain and everyone strangely recognized him. He begins to heal everyone from a blind man to the daughter of a prominent citizen, until the Grand Inquisitor stops him and puts him in jail. He questions Christ.
ReplyDeleteIva said on page 5, “Man was created a rebel; and how can rebels be happy?” Pulling my own knowledge from what I know on the Bible, I remember the story of Adam and Eve. God told Adam and Eve that they could eat anything from the garden, except the tree in the middle of the garden. The serpent in the garden, which was really the devil, tempted them and they were thrown out of the garden. Ivan continues on about how Christ was tempted three times and he declined each time because he wanted man to have free will. “Nothing is more seductive for man than his freedom of conscience, but nothing is a greater cause of suffering.” The secret Ivan tells in his story is that man needs to live, but also live for something. Christ died because he wanted to give man the choice in the knowledge between good and evil.
Ivan then talks about freedom, but also talks about the cost. People will never forget the slavery and confusion they went through to earn their freedom. It will bring man happiness, but it will also cause rebellion in him too. Rebellious people will destroy themselves and others, while the rest of the unhappy people will want Christ to come back and save them from themselves. “There are little children rioting and barring out the teacher at school. But their childish delight will end; it will cost them dear. Mankind as a whole has always striven to organize a universal state.” People may rebel, but they will soon get in trouble because of their need for organization. Organization means having rules for society and too much freedom has consequences.
Ivan begins to end his story and his brother Alyosha realizes the secret of the Inquisitor is that he does not believe in God. Aloysha also realizes that Ivan doesn’t either. I don’t think we find out whether Ivan does or doesn’t believe in God, but I can’t help thinking that he is still unsure. Going back to chapter 4, we see that he questions God’s existence because of all the innocent children suffering in the world.
After the Inquisitor stopped speaking to Christ who was the prisoner, he saw that the He listened the whole time. Before the Inquisitor could say something rude to Him, Christ approached him and kissed him. When Ivan finishes his story, Aloysha does the same thing to him. The brothers seem to have a close relationship which makes the story easier to read, especially when Aloysha breaks up the paragraphs with questions for his brother.
Overall, I enjoyed the story. While it was more difficult to read than chapter 4, I thought it was very insightful, and I caught a glimpse of Ivan’s personality and his views on religious things. I still don’t know Ivan’s views on God completely, but I’m sure we’ll find out if we read more chapters!
I found The Grand Inquisitor fascinating, though it was difficult to get through all of the Biblical references, which I had to look up. A passage that I found particularly interesting was the one when Ivan says that people can not flourish under freedom. I disagree with this statement, people can work well together in freedom as long as they know when to control themselves. However, there are many people who cannot control themselves, and I believe that is what Ivan was really saying with that passage, that he believes there are people who should be controlled. Personally, I disagree with this.
ReplyDeleteI agree that people can work together in freedom and that freedom offers endless opportunities of happiness, but in regards to chapter 5 I think that may be too broad of a statement. Ivan has really solidified his argument and pulls out all the stops in explaining his opinion behind his poem.
DeleteBy declining the three temptations, Christ apparently placed a burden of freedom on mankind. According the inquisitor this goes against the natural needs of people,he believes that obedience over freedom is what will be beneficial. That freedom is setting the people up to fail-both during their life and after, butmobedience will keep the people happy on their time on Earth.
"They will understand themselves, at last, that freedom and bread enough for all are inconceivable together, for never, never will they be able to share between them! They will be convinced, too, that they can never be free, for they are weak, vicious, worthless, and rebellious. Thou didst promise them the bread of Heaven, but, I repeat again, can it compare with earthly bread in the eyes of the weak, ever sinful and ignoble race of man?" I like that passage because it demonstrates the reasoning behind the other side of the argument. We have Christ who initiated the freedom of the people, and then the inquisitor who tries to counteract the burden of freedom.
My stance on the topic- I think that freedom is a dangerous thing if handed out in vast quantities. Like Mr. MacArthur was saying in class today, if us teenagers are handed too much free time or too much freedom, there are some negative effects. Not everyone can handle freedom. I think however, that it is our right as human beings to have the chance with freedom. If Christ must take it away as he see fits, so be it. But I don't think we should be born with security and lack of free will.
After reading chapter 5, I was left puzzled. At first I thought a lot about the Spanish Inquisition, and then I realized that this was more than about just the Inquisition. As Martha stated, without the full back story of the previous chapters, it is difficult reading to understand. While Ivan’s story made sense, it still left me wondering.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading other responses and honestly re-reading the story several times, I believe Ivan to be like the Grand Inquisitor in a sense. In Ivan’s poem, he asks, “. 'Hast Thou the right to reveal to us one of the mysteries of that world from which Thou hast come?' my old man asks Him,…” Neither Ivan or the Grand Inquisitor feels he does, because they feel it takes away the freedom which they have been given. Ivan and the Grand Inquisitor do not seem to accept God or Jesus to be real or exist. They both think that he doesn’t help the people and that people are truly low; he doesn’t think that people should be shown compassion. He thinks that all men are sinners.
I liked this chapter more than chapter 4 because it wasn’t as sickening as the chapter 4 although it is still far from a happy topic.
Ivan is quite depressing. His views are not revolutionary, nor are they out of place in such a bleak time. The world he lives in is similar to the inquisition, but at the same time he seems to only look at the black and white of things. I’m not sure if he shares his views with the inquisitor, or if he believes the majority of powerful men do, but either way it is not an incredibly shocking revelation. Elegantly worded, his argument comes down to powerful men want more power. He dresses it up quite well, the grand inquisitor interrogating God, a long winded explanation about freedom, but at its base is still the same. I believe that his ideas are interesting but incorrect. Ivan makes the same mistake when talking about humanity as he did in the previous chapter. He assumes us to be a weak, cowardly and evil group. He does not recognize that men have the potential for good as much as evil. The inquisitor believes that men will gladly renounce their beliefs to live in safety. He believes that we find choices incredibly threatening and that given an opportunity will always choose evil. He does not understand basic human thought and, for a cardinal, seems to not understand the bible. He forgets all the tales of the martyrs who died happily for their beliefs. He blames god for not creating a universal kingdom on earth. The bible says that when he returns he shall make it on earth as it is in heaven. Religious beliefs aside, it makes little sense that a cardinal wouldn’t know one of the fundamental instruments of Christianity. I’m not exactly the best judge of humanity, but I like to think that there are many of us that would not roll over and become slaves simply to survive. I believe a large amount of us would rather die than become slaves, actually.
ReplyDeleteTo quote a founding father, “Those Who Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.”
-Ben Franklin
Ivan posits that the GI loves people, but thinks them incapable of living a true Christian life: which he deems too difficult. So he will make their lives, simpler, and happier (while here on Earth. Afterwards. . . well, they wouldn't have made it anyway. No harm, no foul). No doubt there's power in it for him, but I don't take that sa the prime motivator.
DeleteThis chapter was really interesting, and it really boldened Ivan's reluctance to depend on religion.
ReplyDeleteI guess the major implications, to me, were that Ivan was describing religion as an unattainable goal; mankind is unfit to live by the word of the Lord, otherwise we'd all be Christlike.
Well, if everyone was Christlike, there's be no reason for religion in the first place. Which is what I think may harbor some of Ivan's skepticism; the attainability and hypocrisy of living a spiritual life.
"We shall show them that they are weak, that they are only pitiful children, but that childlike happiness is the sweetest of all. They will become timid and will look to us and huddle close to us in fear, as chicks to the hen. They will marvel at us and will be awe-stricken before us, and will be proud at our being so powerful and clever that we have been able to subdue such a turbulent flock of thousands of millions. They will tremble impotently before our wrath, their minds will grow fearful, they will be quick to shed tears like women and children, but they will be just as ready at a sign from us to pass to laughter and rejoicing, to happy mirth and childish song. Yes, we shall set them to work, but in their leisure hours we shall make their life like a child's game, with children's songs and innocent dance. "
This quote makes Ivan's awareness of the human condition apparent. Those who enforce the religion, in his observation, (as stated by the Grand Inquisitor), are not doing by the word of God, (men are unable to think for themselves, for they are not Christlike and cannot make the right decisions), rather by what they believe would be best for the people beneath them. By molding the ideas and the scriptures of a faith, others are able to take advantage of their followers, or let them stray from a Godly way of life.
"And so, convinced of this, he sees that he must follow the counsel of the wise spirit, the dread spirit of death and destruction, and therefore accept lying and deception, and lead men consciously to death and destruction, and yet deceive them all the way so that they may not notice where they are being led, that the poor blind creatures may at least on the way think themselves happy. And note, the deception is in the name of Him in Whose ideal the old man had so fervently believed all his life long. Is not that tragic?"
This also reinforces the idea that the people are manipulated by their faith and their church.
I mean, and the fact that Jesus was arrested for doing Jesus stuff, because the Church had their own ideas of what Jesus was allowed to do.
I think I find this chapter to be almost accurate. Although Ivan is bleak and a "glass half empty" kind of guy, the depiction of the manipulation of sums of people is accurate. It explains any sort of hierarchy in our society. We have governors and presidents and elections because many humans, generally speaking, are unable to make decisions based on what's right, rather than what they desire.
The GI could be Steve Jobs, don't you think, and the Holy Roman church Apple.
DeleteSay, wait. . . Apple?
Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
Nooooo for some reason the computer just shut down and I lost everything!!! And it was a lot!! Here I go again…
ReplyDelete“Why do people kill people to show killing people is wrong?” As I was reading about the Grand Inquisitor and how he killed heretics, this quote popped into my head. In the context of the story, the quote could say something like, “why does one perform unholy acts to punish another for committing unholy acts?” One of the Ten Commandments is “Thou shall not kill,” so why does the Inquisitor have to power to break that commandment in punishment of others who broke the commandment, “I am the Lord you God, you shall not have other Gods before me.” I was also confused about the Inquisitor and he position he holds. Is he a religious figure like a pope? I know they referenced cardinals in the passage and cardinals are a level below the pope, if I remember correctly, so I was wondering what type of power he holds due to the duty he performs and the title he has. When he imprisoned Jesus, I was very perplexed by how he didn’t believe that He was Jesus. I thought it would be pretty clear He was after the He brought the little girl back to life, but I guess for the Inquisitor that wasn’t enough proof! I pondered this and thought maybe the old man was jealous of the attention Jesus got, or the love he received. Then Ivan told Alyosha it was merely a mistaken identity, so maybe I should keep Occum’s Razor in mind, but I thought there was more to it. When he initially took Him away out of the crowd I was annoyed that no one stood up for Jesus, but in a time when people are burned at the stake for heresy, I suppose they were more in fear for their life and not in the position to stand up to the Inquisitor.
One line Ivan said to Alyosha mentioned being “so corrupted by modern realism and can’t stand anything fantastic.” Although Ivan’s “modern” is much different than our “modern” I think the idea applies to human nature in any time. To me it says people are so focused on reality that they never think of miracles. If someone an overambitious suggestion, for example, they’ll usually get, “Let’s be realistic” as a response. That’s the kind of world we’re in. People focus on being so real they forget to dream and forget to imagine fantasy. When I tried to think of modern day miracles nothing came to mind at all, while various tragedies, on the other hand, flooded my mind like Sandy Hook, the Colorado shooting, assassinations, and so many more. Isn’t it a shame that there aren’t miracles to think of nowadays and that we, myself included, see tragedy over any miracle?
continued in next comment!!
What is important to remember about the Inquisition and all time periods where there was religous persecution was that religious teachings were manipulated so people believed they were being holy by killing these people. The Jesuits were created to defend Roman Catholicism and unfortunately one way they defended their religion was by killing.
DeleteNot only that, but even the Grand Inquisitor agrees more with Satan than with Jesus Christ. He calls the Satan a "wise and dread spirit".Not many people would call Satan wise. The Grand Inquisitor believes that Jesus should have taken Satan's three temptations because then there would be a more ordered world where man lived in security. He believes that when Jesus resisted the temptations of Satan, he believes that a rebellious man was born from that.
I agree with you in the fact that there are few modern day miracles. It is hard to think of miracles when the world today moves so fast and you have to focus on the present in order to be successful in life. Its also hard to think of miracles when the news keeps talking about a tragedy weeks after it happens. But I believe that there are miracles in this world, and nobody talks about it. There was the pilot who landed the airplane in the Hudson River, the people who lifted a taxi to save someone trapped underneath, and I have read many article where people have recovered from fatal diseases and injuries. Most people today focus on the negative tragidies and not the positive miracles
"Is he a religious figure like a pope?"
DeleteBelow the Pope. I believe that the soon to be former Pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, once held the office.
"When he imprisoned Jesus, I was very perplexed by how he didn’t believe that He was Jesus."
Oh, the GI knows exactly who he's got. And He would only get in the way.
Now, on the topic of freedom, from what I’ve gathered, Ivan is saying that a man cannot live completely free; it will drive him crazy. “So long as a man remains free he strives for nothing so incessantly and so painfully as to find someone to worship.” “…man is tormented by no greater anxiety than to find someone quickly to whom he can hand over that gift of freedom…” “For the secret of man’s being is not only to live but to have something to live for.” Each of these quotes emphasize to me that man must have someone to believe in, someone to emulate, or to worship. They need to strive for something, or have something to keep them tied to society and the world. With too much freedom, man can do anything and this overwhelms him, driving him crazy and causing him to fall off the map. This made me think of people who commit suicide. Often an excuse for suicide is the person has nothing to live for. They need some guidelines and goals to work towards so they can please others and have a sense of meaning in their life. This is definitely not always the case, but it made me think that maybe people who do kill themselves are putting themselves in the least free place possible: death. Also I noticed that Ivan yielded to the fact that too much freedom leads to dangerous temptations that make people disobey God. In a more simple sense, if there were no rules, people would commit crimes.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to chapter 4, it seems Ivan still doubts God. God has not returned again and torture is ever-present. Later on Alyosha says the Inquisitor’s secret is that he doesn’t believe in God. Maybe this, being Ivan’s poem, is a reflection of his own character not believing in the good of God.
Something that I never understood was the kiss at the end…if anyone has an explanation of that please feel free to fill me in!!
Well once again…wow, that was a doozy. These chapters are certainly not an easy read, that’s for sure. Like the others, I had some difficulty getting into this chapter. However, once I really got going it gradually became easier to understand.
ReplyDeleteSo from what I can see, The Grand Inquisitor wasn’t a fan of Christ. He felt like Christ should have accepted the temptations and given the people security instead of freedom. Then at the end of the Inquisitor’s spiel which was just criticizing Christ’s decisions, Christ kisses him on the lips and is set free. Alrighty then... if I ever get arrested for some reason, I’ll make sure to try that one out. Anyways, I’m pretty sure the Inquisitor wants to go around and fix the “mistake” Christ made. This is what I don’t really understand. He thinks it’s better off for people not to be free because they won’t believe in God and will go to hell? So, he plans on forcing everyone to believe in God and he will provide security? I don’t understand how he can force a person to believe something or how he can promise complete security. This Inquisitor guy… I don’t know about him.
On a side note, I feel like Ivan is similar to the Inquisitor and Alyosha is similar to Christ. Ivan is a religious skeptic and feels he doesn’t need God (or at least that the impression I’m under). The Inquisitor disapproved of Christ’s decisions and thought he could do better. So they both aren’t fans of Christ here. Then Alyosha is highly religious and peaceful, much like Christ. To top it off, he kissed Ivan like Christ kissed the Inquisitor.
I thought that the Cardinal was at least an interesting and surprising character, if not very likable. Obviously the fact that he was a Cardinal and yet thought so little of God was a little surprising to me, but it reminds me that you should never just follow or try to understand someone based on their title alone. As for his views, I couldn’t tell whether the Cardinal actually believed in what he was doing, meaning the leadership of the masses to make them “happy” or if he just wanted to control people. Personally I think it was simple lust for power. Tyrants always seem to use the excuse that the people need to be led in submission, and that it is the only way. I think the Cardinal was just another example of this.
ReplyDeleteAs to the Cardinal’s opinion, that people will be happier being led with food and miracles while the leaders are the few that must suffer, I completely disagree. First of all I don’t think that the Cardinal was “suffering” at all with the power he wielded; he seemed pretty content controlling those around him to me. Second, I think that people should always be allowed to choose their fate. Freedom is the key to happiness, not the curse. I also think however that that fact is more true and effective today than it was back then. The Cardinal believed that the masses were not smart enough to handle their own freedoms, and would prefer to simply be fed. The vital component to being able to choose your own fate is education, something that is far more abundant today than it was back then. So if the Cardinal were to ever have a point, it would be back in the 16th century when he lived. However, I still think the freedom and choice should be the rights of all people and no one should take them away as the Cardinal did.
One of the Cardinal’s main arguments for what he believed in was that common people could not manage their own freedoms. He said that 15 centuries after freedom had been given to them by Jesus; they still could do nothing with it. This was because they did not have the right tools, however. People were just coming of out the Dark and Middle Ages at that time into the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, when ideas and knowledge began spreading and people could do more and more with their lives. The Cardinal was wrong, people can control their fates, they just had to develop the tools to be able to do so, which would never happen if they continued to be simply led through their “happy” lives to their deaths.
The fundamental issue argued in the chapter I think is faith in people in general and human nature. The Cardinal held no faith in the people, and thought that it was better that they were simply led. Jesus held faith in people, and wanted them to control their own destiny. This same argument was held between two political thinkers in the 17th century: Thomas Hobbes and John Locke. Hobbes was like the Cardinal, believing that humans were naturally brutal and had to be ruled. Locke, on the other hand, had faith in people, believing that they that inalienable rights, including freedom, and that they should rule themselves collectively. The argument still goes on today in the battle between democracy and communism.
Just like chapter 4 this chapter was very in-depth and sometimes difficult at times for me to follow. When I first started reading this chapter I was quickly grabbed and intrigued by the plot and the thoughts that were being brought up. As I hit about the middle of the passage, things started to get a little unclear to me and harder to follow. In the end he does wrap up all of his thoughts but I feel like there was a lot of the story that I didn’t pick up on or didn’t get.
ReplyDeleteThe word miracle seemed to show up throughout this passage and that was something that was very interesting to me. When it was first brought up in the passage Ivan had been describing how it had been 15 centuries since He promised he would come down from heaven. He was saying that back in those days there were miracles. There were saints back then that would perform miracle that would cure people. One day, He came. He performed miracles on people around him. He brought the young girl back to life and let a blind guy see again. It made me wonder what the world would be like if there really is someone that could come down whenever and do those miracles. He later brought up that you can give a miracle without a miracle. If man rejects a miracle he rejects God but he can have miracles without him around. The receiving of bread is a miracle of itself but yet not a miracle at all.
Being free and freedom was another common word that I found throughout this passage. The Grand Inquisitor seemed to connect freedom and God together a lot and how over the 15 centuries men have been fighting for their freedom. He claims they have finally vanquished freedom. But yet later on he talks about not being completely free or wanting that freedom. I feel like a lot of this is kind of wishy-washy. I feel like he back tracks a lot.
The mystery is another thing that he isn’t clear about either. The whole time I had got the feeling he was religious but that he was just trying to figure out everything that happens and why things are the way they are. But in the end the mystery seems to be that the Grand Inquisitor doesn’t believe in God at all. After all this talking to God and him not responding to the Grand Inquisitor, God kisses him on the lips and leaves. I’m not sure if I interpreted it right but my take on it was that he was trying to say that it’s up to the Grand Inquisitor to decide if he believes in God after all this and that he is there for him if he finally believes.
In the end there is still lots I haven’t been able to connect in my head but overall it leaves me thinking and still curious what the Grand Inquisitor really believes.
Here's Ivan again, displaying his master storytelling ability. Never before have I been so wrapped up in a story about Christ. Ivan's tale about the imprisonment of Jesus and the Satanic decisions of the Grand Inquisitor was compelling.
ReplyDeleteIvan's poem parallels the attitudes of the two brothers.
One is a cynic, has trouble accepting free will as a noble gift to mankind. The other is a devout follower of Christ, and has no doubt that the actions of God are correct. Dostoevsky intended to display the relationship between Ivan and Alyosha in a very straightforward manner, and I suspect he wanted to prove Ivan's point of view incorrect as well.
In chapter four, Ivan spoke of men as the Grand Inquisitor did to Christ. Ivan asks, 'how can a world where such horrifying events transpire be a world that God loves?' and the Grand Inquisitor follows up with 'it cannot, and therefore the guidance of the devil will see us to happiness.' Christ and Alyosha remain silent. They know that a faith being forced upon the people is not a real faith.
What I suspected to be the author's intent was confirmed at the end of the chapter, when Alyosha kisses his brother in silence and leaves. Ivan's poem illustrates both sides. To me, it appears to ultimately favor Christ, not the Grand Inquisitor.
Christ knew how wrong the Grand Inquisitor was in his judgment, and Alyosha knew that Ivan had failed to understand the meaning behind his own story.
Although I found Chapter 4 to be an easier and more entertaining read I found Chapter 5 to be far more thought provoking. Throughout the chapter Ivan struggles with various religious questions that ultimately make it difficult for him to believe in Christ or God.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Ivan, like most everyone on Earth, has unanswered questions. Religion is such an overwhelming topic and there are so many aspects that can not be confirmed. No one knows what happens after death and the lack of factual information often makes it hard to grasp onto any aspect of it. Faith is a very difficult thing to have, especially in the society we live in today. Everything must be double checked and approved because there is so much false information out there. However, just because you have questions does not mean that something is not real. You can not understand something, but it could still exist.
"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19)
One of the things that Ivan had a difficult time understanding was why Christ gave humanity the choice of whether to accept them as their savior. He believed that it was unfair to destine humans to inevitable failure. He brings up a logical question. Why does Christ choose to give people an option not to live a life which doesn’t end in heaven instead of giving the security of eternal glory? I don’t feel God did this because he was unjust I believe he did it because he is truly fair. God wanted to give mankind choices. He did not want our society to live like robots and just praise him because we had to. The easiest way for me to explain the way I see it is in parenting. Often times parents will let there child make choices, even if they lead to failure. The parents do not do this because they don’t love the children; they do it because they want the best for their children and they know that if they learn from their mistakes they will be better off in the future and hopefully make the right decisions. It is not because they are unfair, it is simply because they love them and want them to make the right decision on their own.
Ivan also struggles with the idea of temptation. He knows that we are not God-like figures and we will not be able to resist the same temptations that Jesus Christ does.
In 1 John 1:9 it says “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
Most of the references that Jesus makes to temptations in the bible have to do with forgiveness. The way I interpret that is that God does not expect us to be perfect; he knows that we will make mistakes and we will screw things up, but he is a forgiving being. He is not there to punish us for our sins but he is there to forgive us for them.
Although I did not agree with many of Ivan’s thoughts on God and religion they were thought provoking and brought up interesting discussion questions.
Ok so this chapter was really difficult for me to read. I read it twice and still had trouble understanding what was going on and, at times, who was speaking during Ivan’s story. It’s very clear that Ivan is confused about what he believes in, but it seems that he’s trying to explain his feelings in a very complicated way. He goes round and round and I don’t even know if he gets to the point! But that’s just my opinion. So because I’m rather confused on what actually happened in this chapter, I might treat it a tiny bit like a lectio. Here we go!
ReplyDeleteThe old man in Ivan’s story mentions three questions as the three temptations. He says that to restore these questions, they gathered all the wise men of the earth and “set them to the task to invent three questions, such as would not only fit the occasion, but express in three words, three human phrases, the whole future history of the world and of humanity”. First of all, did they come up with these questions? Second of all, would the world benefit from knowing these three questions or the answers to them? They are called temptations for a reason. I am rather curious about these questions though. What three human words can actually describe the whole future of humanity? Are they love, hate, and jealousy to describe our emotions or are they kiss, kill, and envy to describe our actions? Are they so complex that a seventeen year old mind can’t truly fathom them? Nothing is made clear. Maybe we all have our three questions to express our humanity and our world alone. We can all make our own questions.
Another quote I found interesting was on page seven. “Nothing is more seductive for man than his freedom of conscience, but nothing is a greater cause of suffering.” There is such a burden that comes with guilt and it is true that man will do almost anything to alleviate this feeling, including suffer for it. Guilt can eat away at your mind until you can do nothing else but think about what you did wrong. Think about survivor’s guilt. You push away all happiness because you can’t believe that you can be happy while someone you love is gone. You are willing to suffer just so that you won’t feel guilty for enjoying your life. Admitting your guilt for a crime, or even just a wrong doing, can lift a weight off your shoulders until the punishment comes. Ivan was correct when he said that man will do anything to clear his guilty conscience, even if it just brings suffering down upon himself. We may be falling on our sword for admitting guilt but maybe clearing our conscience is worth it.
This entire chapter left me baffled. The language, Ivan’s contradictions, his cynicism, his confusion all left me scratching my head over what in the world just happened. All in all, I preferred chapter four much more.
Well I am going to start of with the cliche of saying how difficult this chapter was to read. On the bright side, I did find many vocab words!
ReplyDeleteI do believe, though, that this chapter further proved (if we had not had proof before) of how much of a rebellion Ivan is. I also found him to be a bit depressing and also it seemed as though he may be looking for an argument. There are a few reasons why he might be considered a rebel but I believe that it is because he differs on opinions from almost everyone. His sister, Alyosha, most definitely disagrees with his opinions and we can see this by the many times that she questions him. She asks him many questions about his story and makes note that she does not understand his story or his beliefs.
He mostly refers to "The Grand Inquisitor" as a higher power that everyone knows just by sight, not by what he does. In the beginning, he says that people know when he is walking by and say "It is he, It is He. It can be no one else." But then He proves who he is by raising a child from the dead. Again I noticed that Ivan chose a child to be risen. He could have chosen any other age but he seems stuck on the innocence of a child.
After reading, and not having complete understanding of this chapter, I chose to look for a summary/reading guide online to help me to understand it. I found that a summary on SparkNotes said that Ivan is talking about separation of church and state in his story. He is not a believer in the separation of church and state and that is why we find his opinions so absurd. We have separation of church and state in the United States and we have had it for so long that the opinions of someone who disagrees with the separation seems crazy. After reading that summary, I decided to take a look again at this chapter to try and see if I could read where he was talking about combining church and state. I could clearly see that Ivan would prefer their to be more involvement with religion within the country of Russia. He believed that religion having more involvement would cut down on the amount of crime in Russia. Over all, I prefered reading chapter 4, but I did really enjoy reading into this chapter to find out what was written between the lines.
I agree with Kierra in saying that this chapter was difficult to read. I found myself lost at many points. I felt it was more difficult than chapter 4 we previously read. I still found Ivan's view points, elaboration, and details quite interesting. As Kierra said he has very different opinions than Alyosha, and it seems like he tends to challenge her.
DeleteIvan in my view is strange. His stories or his poem is at times depressing. Once again he refers to a child dying. What is with his fascination with children? With every piont he attempts to make to Alyosha a child is brought into his discussion. "In it lies a child of seven, the only daughter of a prominent citizen. The dead child lies hidden in flowers. 'He will raise your child,'" I also noticed just a random statement Ivan made how the Grand Inquistor was a 90 year old man and he was portrayed as the bad guy, he put Christ in Jail. In the previous chapter Ivan continually expressed how adults were the bad people while children were innocent, sweet, and curious.
I clearly see Ivan is a religious man. This whole chapter was about Ivans story of Christ and the Grand Inquisitor. Christ whom is the son of god and the Grand Inquisitor is on Satan or the devils side. Ivan shows how deoted he is to religion. I am also religious, but not as much as Ivan. It seemed like throughout the chapter he was trying to push more and more religion on Alyosha. Ivan seemed to send a religious message across with his story. That people should not choose to be religious and follow God, it should be something everyone should be a part of. Ivan expressed in his story that following God will give security, happiness, and a sense of belonging. As Kierra said earlier today in America people have the free will to believe in religion of any kind or not to follow any religion at all. As Ivan said,"Thee that now, to-day, people are more persuaded than ever that they have perfect freedom, yet they have brought their freedom to us and laid it humbly at our feet." Maybe that is why some people in the world are lost? Without security people can't find their way or which path to choose.
I did enjoy the end of the chapter the best! It seemed to have a happy ending the Grand Inquisitor got a kiss from Christ, and he seemed to have glown from that kiss. "The kiss glows in his heart." Christ was also freed from jail. Maybe Ivan really is a kid at heart. Don't all kids love a happy ending?
-Tori Cronin
The state is concerned with the worldly welfare of its children; the church with their after-worldly well-being. So a separation makes sense. The Inquisitor has decided he has to look after his flock's temporal conditions (while more-or-less giving up on the other).
DeleteOh, and Alyosha is the youngest of the Karamazov brothers (although he is in the words of the poet Paul Durcan "gentler than a man").
Wow…….. That was fun. Once again, Ivan tells us how he sees the world with its wrongs and its rights. He is still unsure of religion and the power of God, but he still maintains some kind of faith. What I found most intriguing was the thought-provoking questions that Ivan asked. These questions cannot be answered with any proof, but do reveal humans’ true nature.
ReplyDeleteIn this chapter, I read more about Ivan’s beliefs in religion and more about the Grand Inquisitor and his relationship with Jesus. Clearly, the Great Inquisitor did not think Jesus was doing the right thing in his teachings and how he interacted with the people on Earth. The Great Inquisitor thought that Jesus should have accepted the three temptations from the devil because this action would have forced the people on Earth to have no choice. Jesus did not accept them because he believed that the people on Earth should have free will and be able to choose whether or not to follow him. The Great Inquisitor, being a revered cardinal of the Catholic Church, agreed with the church’s decision to overrule Jesus and undo his actions by giving the people security. What baffles me is how a cardinal can look in Jesus Christ’s face and tell him that they know better than the son of God. Their entire religion is based off of Jesus’s work and how he sacrificed his life so others may live. The Great Inquisitor reminds me of Ivan, a cynical theologian, and Alyosha reminds me of Jesus Christ. Both the Inquisitor and Ivan do not see the potential in mankind. He thinks that they rely on God and cannot think on their own, often following a misguided ruler. Alyosha reminded me of Jesus because he sees the good in people and truly believes that they will do the right thing. After listening to Ivan’s rants about God and Jesus, Alyosha is unfazed and maintains his beliefs in God, no questions asked.
As I kept reading the Great Inquisitor’s statements to Jesus, I came to the conclusion that he was completely misguided. Although the Catholic Church may make some mistakes, I would go as so far to say that they are doing the work of Satan. Despite hearing the Great Inquisitor’s harsh comments, Jesus gets up and kisses him on the lips. I thought that this was fitting because it was Jesus after all. Jesus Christ was known for forgiveness and his love of humanity so to do such an act to a man who hates you is believable. The Great Inquisitor lets Jesus go because he has seen the light and the wrongdoings he had committed. To put the icing on top, Alyosha kisses Ivan on the lips to forgive him, just like what Jesus did. Although Ivan and Alyosha are learning more about the connection between God and human nature, they are not at the end of their journey yet.
"What baffles me is how a cardinal can look in Jesus Christ’s face and tell him that they know better than the son of God." That's one of the things that makes the piece so memorable. Well, Christianity in its various permutations has become well institutionalized. And Institutions have their needs.
DeleteThe great American folksinger, Woody Guthrie, thinks that Jesus would also be unwelcome today [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDS00Pnhkqk]-- a thorn, so to speak, in the side of many contemporary "believers".
“Choosing ‘bread,’ Thou wouldst have satisfied the universal and everlasting craving of humanity- to find someone to worship.”
ReplyDeleteEven though this is only the second chapter we’ve read, it’s become clear that Ivan is most definitely one to obsess over things and rant for ages about whatever’s on his mind. He’s made it obvious that he’s uber-critical of God and religion, and it seems to be his favorite past time to rant to Alyosha about it. It seems to me that even though Ivan appears to be very much against believing in God, he does fit the description in this statement. He’s obsessed with professing his critiques of religion and God. When I read this statement it made me think, what would he say if he were on a different subject? Doesn’t he have anything else to talk about, ever? All we’ve ever heard from him is how critical he is of God, and how absorbed into his own mind he is when he really gets into a good rant. Alyosha barely can get a word in. Anyways, my point was that he seems to need to critique religion. That critical-mindedness of religion is his own worship of sorts. He talks about it, he obviously spends a heck of a lot of time thinking about it, and he lives by it. I think he has a craving for religion, even though he strives to discredit it. Everyone has their own views on religion, whether it’s a founded, recognized religion, a lack of religion, or the admittance that they really just don’t know what’s out there. Ivan’s “religion” per say, is his obsession with critiquing religion itself.
"When I read this statement it made me think, what would he say if he were on a different subject?"
DeleteWell, there's another 500 pages or so. Ivan's not on every single one, but he's in their. (And Alyosha gets time to talk, as does their brother Dmitri.) Don't you just want to read the whole thing, now?
As in chapter 4, Ivan attempts to determine right from wrong in the world and evaluate the values behind each concept, this time in the form of Christ and Satan. Ivan clearly accepts that man "prefers peace and death to the freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil". Ivan brings up the distinction between good and evil often, saying that the free heart is what deciphers good from evil. Yet, numerous times Ivan claims that that freedom is a burden, as the church seems to take that freedom away. It is evident that Ivan is trying to find himself by trying to fuse all of his beliefs together, but he essentially contradicts himself and that left me puzzled on what he is trying to get across.
ReplyDeleteClearly, Ivan emphasizes the frivolousness of finding someone to worship and the community that is created to worship someone when talking about the church. Although I am not incredibly religious, I disagree with him here. I am intrigued by the idea of worshiping something greater or almighty because it gives the person something to strive for and someone to be good for. Humanity thrives off of the relations that people have with one another, as well as individuals’ behavior expectations, and it seems that Ivan challenges the fact that individuals can make worthy decisions for themselves. This severe doubt that was carried on from chapter 4 strengthens Ivan’s character and allowed me to see deeper into his thoughts in the form of his own story.
The end of the Grand Inquisitor's story was not at all the ending that I expected from Ivan. It seemed to sweet. However, the Christ's kiss seemed necessary for the old man's personal introspection. The kiss allowed for love and faith to prevail over the old man's skepticism (for just a second!) and caused the kiss to "glow in his heart".
Long read. Probably shouldn't have procrastinated until Thursday night...
ReplyDeleteI'd like to start by talking about Ivan. We met Ivan in chapter 4 as a cynic who looks down upon many aspects of the world. In this chapter, I still find him very cynical of course. He reveals his opinions on the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church in his writing. His writing takes place in Seville, Spain. This struck me a bit. In this chapter we see how extremely intelligent Ivan is. Ivan seems to know a lot about pretty much everything (I get that impression after these 2 chapters). His intense smarts raise some questions to me though. If Ivan is such a smart man and is also a cynic, I find his obvious religiousness a bit uncharacteristic. Why would he blindly follow religion being both smart and cynical? It's probably just uncharacteristic for a person in that time and place to not be religious, but it still seems odd. Even more odd, why does a Russian Orthodox Christian know so much about the workings of the Roman Catholic Church? That seems very odd to me. How would he know of the corruption of the pope or not to the extent of even writing about it? Seems odd to me...
Ivan wrote a lot of the corruption of the Catholic Church. God comes down and shocks everyone in Seville. He even rises the dead. To this, the Pope or as Ivan calls him "The Grand Inquisitor", is upset and takes God away locking him in a cell. He mocks God telling Him that He has no purpose coming down because he can't have anything to add to his words of old. The Roman Catholics at this time do nothing but Christianize the world. At least, this is what Ivan is implying. They inquisit the heretics if they don't become slaves to their God. And that's exactly what the Grand Inquisitor admits. He speaks of giving bread to feed the hungry. This symbolizes the Pope and the Catholic Church giving man a God to worship. This is because man longs to worship a God. But ahhh there is a catch! If man does not want bread, does not want to be fed by this God or by this church, they are a heretic and as such are a sinner and will go to Hell. Ivan criticizes the Roman Catholic Church and reveals his opinions that it's pretty much a lose lose situation for society. Also, the Pope is corrupt and power hungry.
Well I'll be honest, that was brutal to read. Moving past that, I found it fairly interesting but I think it could've been easily condensed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I feel that unless you understand and know about the Spanish Inquisition, you won't fully grasp the chapter. The historical value of that time period is what brings this chapter to life. I also found the fact that the Inquisitor tells Jesus they no longer need him fascinating. The Church wielded so much power in those days; the return of Jesus would absolutely be a threat to their power. They are the sole route to Heaven and a divine being could interfere with that. Up until the Reformation, nobody questioned the Church, and even in Spain during the Inquisition, the Church was the only option, otherwise death awaited.
This chapter also grappled the topic of freedom and human nature. I think that those two are so tightly intertwined that you cannot have one without the other. The author does an incredible job of describing human nature, that the masses will follow blindly, if you simply appease them. The Inquisitor clearly values his power over his virtue and again, that is a remark on human nature; that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The passage that provoked the most thought for me was when the Inquisitor tells Jesus that those under him will live in ignorance for their whole lives, and while he leads them into death, they will be happy, that ignorance is bliss for them. Again, the author touches on the ideas of humans following blindly, and I fear that far too often we don't challenge authority; we've learned to accept things at face value instead of exploring and questioning.
I read this passage last night and tonight, and it took me a while to process it. So here I am last minute to draw my conclusions...
ReplyDeleteI have noticed, as I'm sure as many of you have, that often times in folk tales or any story told with the intent of teaching a lesson uses exaggerations. In this passage, it is obviously a tad extreme of the Grand Inquisitor to order Christ's arrest and order him to cease his works on Earth. Also, realistically, Christ can't turn a stone into bread, or throw himself off a cliff and survive, or rule all the empires of the world. All these elements are supposed to help show how large of a role Christ plays in providing opportunities for the people, and how much he is able to help them.
However, as extreme as these exaggerations may be, they always seem to make one question what is considered "the norm" and if other alternatives may work better. For instance, the Grand Inquisitor says that Christ granted humanity with the freedom to chose to follow him, but almost no one is strong enough to be faithful forever. Now i bet you never shared the Grand Inquisitor's opinion that was Christ did was wrong, and neither had I! After a second look, one can start to see truth in the GI's words. Christ allowing people to have freedom instead of security, as the GI suggested, has created a division among religious beliefs. Some people are atheist and don't believe in Christ, and there are people who believe in Christ in varying degrees. Now I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but it's just another perspective that is pointed out by the GI.
I think this chapter was a little more difficult to understand, but I felt that the more I read, the easier it became to figure out what was happening. I think Ivan's poem was a way for Ivan to explain his thoughts to Alyosha. The poem did not end how I expected it to and I was surprised that Alyosha was not upset about the poem, as he seemed to get upset about religion in the last chapter.
ReplyDeleteThe poem was an interesting view on religion and seemed to lack faith. What I mean by that is the Inquisitor viewed the actions of Christ very objectively and how someone trying to gain power would rational think. I thought this reflected Ivan's opinion of religion very well and that maybe he was telling this story to Alyosha in order to further explain his beliefs (or lack there of).
I found the ending of Ivan's story surprising because in the last chapter Ivan told of very violent occurences in which God did not save anyone, making it seem that his opinion of God is that he is mean and uncaring. In his story, Jesus kisses the Inquisitor to show forgiveness and love, making it seem as though Ivan's opinion of God has changed slightly. Now it appears that God is good and loving and caring- the complete opposite of how I interpreted Ivan's views in the last chapter.
I think the very end of the chapter, with Alyosha kissing Ivan to show his love for him just as Ivan had written in his story was very endearing and showed the strong bond between the two. I also started to think about how Ivan was very similar to the Inquisitor in his story and how that last action made Alyosha seem very similar to Christ. I think this may be because Alyosha is very religious and Ivan is very questioning and objective, even cynical."Is that enough for you? Take it as a declaration of love if you like. And now you go to the right and I to the left. And it's enough, do you hear, enough." This quote made me think that Ivan doesn't want to draw out their goodbye and really gave insight into how much he cares for Alyosha.
Overall, I actually liked this chapter, not to say I would ever read it of my own will, but it definately captured my attention and kept me reading.
As with the first chapter, I found this one to be a challenge too. I still believe that Ivan has some sort of underlying issues and they may have become more clear through this chapter.
ReplyDeleteIvan talked about freedom a lot and I think people today look at it as something they are born with, something they’ll always have. This wasn’t always the case though. The passage I found most interesting told how in the end people will give up their very freedom to be taken care of by God.
“Oh, never, never can they feed themselves without us! No science will give them bread so long as they remain free. In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, “Make us your salves but feed us.””
The Bible says how God was able to feed the hungry, to satisfy them. This quotes refers to that in that God is able to satisfy people in ways nothing else can. Science is not able to give them bread, but God can.
The last line of the quote means that people will be willing so sacrifice their freedom for God to help them. That says a lot because freedom is ultimately giving up yourself, and nothing is greater than that. In those days freedom also didn’t come as easily. These were times before the Constitution and Amendments, so to refer to freedom in those days holds a lot more significance as opposed to referring to freedom today where we as Americans are born with it.
Throughout the chapter I found a lot of pieces that talked about worshiping God as the greatest thing someone can ask for, and ultimately what all strive to achieve. The first line about never being able to feed themselves without “us”, I believe, is symbolic of people not being able to get through life without some form of worship. At one time or another, everyone will feel lost or alone, and look for comfort and solace. I think that in order to get through such a time in one’s life, they would need to look to God.
I found such hints about worship being greater than all, rather, surprising for the chapter. The last chapter left me with the impression that Ivan was the one completely against God and worship, where as Aloysha was the one that embraced it.
First, I'd like to mention that I found some of the author's choices of words were very interesting. "splendid auto da fe" and "magnificent auto da fe" stood out to me. Spledid and magnificent aren't words one would expect to hear when describing a mass burning of heretics. When I was reading this, I pictured a loud and frantic scene in my head, and when i hit the word "splendid", other words like leisurely and pleasure were sparked in my head. This contradicted what I had orginally pictured and confused me a little. On the other hand, I enjoyed the word choice of "sinister" in describing the fire in the Grand Inquistor's eyes. Sinister is a word I associate with the devil, so I found it interesting that the author would describe a cardinal as something related to the devil.
ReplyDeleteAnd now some quotations that stuck out to me.
"everlasting craving of humanity-to find someone to worship." I feel that this statement has some validity. I think most people want to believe that there is a higher power. There are alot of questions people have like what's going to happen to them after they die, and the unknown can be very frightening to people. Believing in a higher power can answer some of those questions.
"give bread, and man will worship thee, for nothing is more certain than bread." It is difficult for some people to believe in a God because there's no physical proof a God exists. I believe that this is the main reason people are skeptical of religion. With physical proof, it would be hard to deny that a God exists, and that's what the quotation is stating.
~Meera Davé
Thou, Thou, Thou, Thou, Thou… Oh my goodness, I have never seen a word used so many times in one passage before. For the first couple pages of this reading, I was able to breakdown each sentence and comprehend what Ivan was saying to Alyosha about the Grand Inquisitor's actions in regards to faith, but once the cardinal started speaking to "The Prisoner", to be honest, I started to get lost. Overall, I get that Ivan is sharing his poem with Alyosha… but I am confused as to why he is sharing it/ what its significance is.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I gathered is that the Inquisitor does not approve of " men's freedom." He feels that freedom and freedom of choice are complete burdens to mankind. For some reason, he thinks that the power of free choice is too much for man to handle… that it secretly drives society crazy. He even said, "for nothing has ever been more insupportable for a man and a human society than freedom." He then goes on to say that if Christ had succumbed to the three temptations of the devil, then all of mankind would be saved from the freedom of choice. He's blaming Christ for something totally unrelated to Christ's intentions when he didn't give into the temptations.
While I was reading, I couldn't help but get annoyed with the cardinal's sick and twisted views of religion and society. His ideas did not make sense to me. For example, towards the end of the Inquisitor's speech to the Prisoner, he claimed that the people should be allowed to sin and that he and the church officials will take the punishment of others' sins onto themselves. Why is this necessary? What is he trying to achieve with this idea? It just doesn't make sense in my mind.. how he can turn Christ's denial of the devil's three temptations into a huge burden on mankind that somehow he was going to fix himself by changing the religion? He wants everyone to be happy while sinning but not knowing they are sinning, and he wants them to tell him everything so he can be in control of it all… It just doesn't add up in my mind. His "solution" for fixing Christ's burden of free choice seems so wrong and anti-Christ.
I think that the cardinal's whole religious scheme is ridiculous. He knows that Christ has more power than him (he saw the people's reactions to his miracles during his visit and while he brought to life the deceased little girl in the white coffin). Before the Prisoner kisses him, he wants to get rid of Christ and burn him because he is aware that Christ has the power to change society's mind. It seems as though it is a power struggle for the Inquisitor.
And then, the kiss happens… which suddenly changes his mind about burning Christ and he sets the Prisoner free. I have no idea why this kiss occurs/ why the cardinal sets the Prisoner free with a mere warning never to return…It certainly proves that the cardinal does not have as much power as he thinks he as, considering a kiss changed his mind. Did the Prisoner kiss the Grand Inquisitor on the lips to catch him off guard? Or to show that he wasn't phased by what the Inquisitor had to say? I really have no clue, but I thought it was clever that Dostoevsky had Alyosha mimick Christ's actions by kissing Ivan before the brothers departed. Especially because Alyosha is more of the Christ-like of the two brothers, while Ivan seems to be the rebel/ questionable about religion.
-Brianna Ricciardone
For some reason, I really got into this chapter. The last one didn’t seem as interesting or comprehendible since you didn’t know where they were coming from, but Ivan’s poem definitely shed some light on his character.
ReplyDeleteTo start off, I was wondering what the source of the italicized verses near the beginning of the chapter. Then I saw the name Tyutchev and looked this up. It turns out that Ivan is referring to Fyodor Tyutchev, a Russian Romantic poet. I found this kind of interesting since we are studying Wordsworth and Coleridge right now and they are also Romantic poets.
I enjoyed Ivan’s “preface” to his story because it really set the scene for what mood and style I could expect in his story. His description of “The Wanderings of Our Lady through Hell” mirrored both Jesus being out of place and His love for humans.
While reading through this poem, I thought about the Grand Inquisitor and what it meant. An inquisition is a period of prolonged and intensive questioning or investigation and an inquisitor is a person making an inquiry (obviously) especially one seen to be excessively harsh or searching. At first, I thought the cardinal was an inquisitor of the heretics, but after reading his discussion with Jesus, I think his is the Grand Inquisitor because of his interrogation of Jesus.
Another thing I saw all through the story was Ivan’s hate of humans voiced in the Inquisitor. He continuously said that men are weak and they don’t want to have free will. This reminded me of his horrible stories in the last chapter and how he said humans don’t deserve peace and forgiveness.
One line that really confused me in the story was “And we shall sit upon the beast and raise the cup, and on it will be written ‘Mystery.’” I think “mystery” in the rest of the story is used as synonym for the “truth.” For example, in the sentence “For only we, we who guard the mystery, shall be unhappy,” I see the mystery as a disappointing truth (as in ignorance is bliss) or even the knowledge of good and evil. The cardinal’s truth that Alyosha later guesses is that there is no God and this makes a lot of the cardinal’s philosophy make more sense, but I still don’t understand that line.
One thing that I realized after going over my notes after reading was that the Inquisitor never mentions the third temptation of Jesus. Basically, the third temptation is that the devil promises all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus if he worships him. I tried to think of what the Inquisitors reply to this temptation would be. Any ideas?
ReplyDeleteWhen Jesus’ only reply to the Inquisitor was to kiss him, I was shocked. I understand how this shows that Jesus can only love, but I was expecting a few kind, simple words. I was wondering if this is at all related to Judas, the disciple that betrayed Jesus. Judas identified Jesus to His captors by telling them Jesus would be the one he kissed. Maybe this shows how the Inquisitor betrayed Jesus, even though the roles are reverse.
When Alyosha first speaks after Ivan finishes his story, he refers to the cardinal as “your suffering Inquisitor.” When I first read this, I was confused why he said the Inquisitor was suffering, but it wasn’t until Ivan explained his suffering that I understood. He says, “…but isn’t that suffering, at least for a man like that, who has wasted his whole life in the desert and yet could not shake off his incurable love of humanity? In his old age he reached the clear conviction that nothing but the advice of the great dread spirit could build up any tolerable sort of life for the feeble, unruly, ‘incomplete, empirical creatures created in jest.’” Near the end of Ivan’s poem, I got really emotional and I think this is because the cardinal has such a loss of faith and hope and Dostoevsky is such a good writer that I couldn’t help but feel the same way.
Overall, I really enjoyed this reading and felt like it was very captivating and thought-provoking. I wasn’t too thrilled with Chapter 4 but after reading this chapter, I would seriously consider reading this book.
"The Inquisitor never mentions the third temptation of Jesus. Basically, the third temptation is that the devil promises all the kingdoms of the earth to Jesus if he worships him. I tried to think of what the Inquisitors reply to this temptation would be. Any ideas?"
DeleteBasically, it's this whole chapter. Remember that Christ started slowly -- a minor figure from a Jewish cult. There are a lot of people who do not accept Jesus as God. The 3rd temptation would have fixed all that -- made Jesus the unquestioned King of the world.
I felt quite indifferent to what the other people commenting were saying; that they found this Chapter easier to read than the previous one. To be honest, I found this chapter much more difficult to read and to grasp the overall concept of. There were most certainly lines that stood out to me and provoked my thinking. Yet I wished to be able to understand the story with more depth.
ReplyDelete'How can I forgive His tormentors?' was the first quote that really stood out to me. The context behind it is that Mary is asking God to forgive all those who have sinned against him and God thinks of his son, Jesus, who died on the cross. He asks how he can forgive the people who heckled and killed his only son. This only fortifies the deep religious connection and beliefs Ivan holds and the many questions he has at the same time. In the previous chapter Ivan questioned God’s decisions and in this chapter he questions the belief of forgiving others that have done wrong, no matter what they did or who they are. It is also a valid question that many people including myself ask ourselves. When something happens in our daily life and we know we must forgive someone like God wants but sometimes it is not that easy.
“Awaited His coming, loved Him, hoped for Him, yearned to suffer and die for Him as before. And so many ages mankind had prayed with faith and fervour, 'O Lord our God, hasten Thy coming'; so many ages called upon Him, that in His infinite mercy He deigned to come down to His servants.” This is yet another example of Ivan seemingly questioning his faith and belief in God. He’s asking why God would let such awful events occur (like in Chapter 4 with the harm against the children) and not put an end to them.
-Samantha Riley
“It is true there were many miracles in those days.” This line was saying that back in the days when Christ walked the Earth, miracles were being performed that astounded everyone who were witnesses. If you have read the bible there are many miracles Jesus performed on others such as making the blind see, making the crippled walk and healing a man of his leprosy. These are most definitely, by anyone’s standards, miracles and more specifically are the “modern day” stereotypical miracles that first come to mind when people hear the word “miracle.” However, the way this phrase was worded seems to indicate that there are not miracles being performed like that nowadays, for one, in a religious sense, it could be that Christ is no longer on Earth with us or in another sense, that is hinted at later on in the passage, without faith and belief miracles don’t happen. “There were saints who performed miraculous cures; some holy people, according to their biographies, were visited by the Queen of Heaven herself. But the devil did not slumber, and doubts were already arising among men of the truth of these miracles.” The first part of the last sentence: “but the devil did not slumber” is meaning that the devil was doing evil and causing people to lose their faith in God. The second part of the line “and doubts were already arising among men of the truth of these miracles.” Was with the devil affecting their faith, they were losing sight of the miracles and good deeds being performed by Jesus/God.
ReplyDeleteI believe that this is not a valid point in Ivan’s story because there are miracles being performed today you, they are just not as awe-stricking as making the blind see. They are the little things instead.
I did have a question, when the cardinal was introduced, the phrase “modern realism” was brought up and after looking up what it was I still was slightly confused what it was and how it “corrupted” the Grand Inquisitor?
"The kiss glows in his heart, - Not in context with the story but I liked the way this was worded.
Alyosha got up, went to him and softly kissed him on the lips.
"That's plagiarism," cried Ivan, highly delighted. "You stole that from my poem. Thank you though. Get up, Alyosha, it's time we were going, both of us."
Another side-note- Aloysha did of course steal the action of kissing Ivan on the lips from the story as he is accused of but there is more to it than that. At the end of the story the Grand Inquisitor kissed Jesus but it is obviously not in a loving gesture, since he had just finished telling Jesus why he could no longer perform his good deeds (the Grand Inquisitor in this part resembles the devil and when he kisses Jesus it reminds me of Judas). So when Alyosha kissed Ivan I believe this could foreshadow something that Alyosha does to Ivan or some sort of betrayal. Just going out a limb here.
-Samantha Riley
I like your idea that miracles are still performed today, they are just more minor. I would agree with that but i think people have lost sight of what a miracle is. It seems to me that we take miracles for granted. I mean now a days cancer isn't a death sentence. we have lasik surgery to "make the blind see" we can do surgeries to make people that would have been crippled perfectly functional. An agnostic would hail this as a triumph of science over faith, and some christians call it god working subtly. whichever it is isn't of my concern, but I think its an interesting talking point.
DeleteI think I may be able to shed some light on the idea of modern realism. I think in the context of Dostoyevsky modern realism refers to the idea that the Grand Inquisitor has that he has more power than the lord himself over how his messages are to be spread. It's either that or he thinks he has that power BECAUSE OF modern realism which maybe the idea that if people have freedom of faith the whole world will go to hell (punny) and descend into anarchy. I personally favor the latter explanation.
Hopefully I've helped shed some light on the situation rather that cause more confusion.
"I did have a question, when the cardinal was introduced, the phrase “modern realism” was brought up and after looking up what it was I still was slightly confused what it was and how it “corrupted” the Grand Inquisitor?"
DeleteAlyosha is having trouble grasping the nature of the story. It's he whom Ivan accuses of being bound up in "modern realism". Ivan means this to be a fable, and not bound by all the rules of "realism" (the school of art the purports to reproduce reality).
Caroline Morrison says: "Well as embarrassing as it is to probably be the last person to offer comments on this piece, I have to state my case and honestly tell you that I actually finished reading this on Tuesday night. However, I let myself think on it for a few days so I could accurately shape my opinion on it before I commented. It didn't work. I'm still not too sure on where I stand with this piece, because I can agree with both of Ivan's contradicting arguments. And in a way, I think that that's why the character is the way he is. He may be cynical and negative and sometimes a little loony, but it's so easy to agree with him that you can't really dislike him as a character. I also think that the relationship between Alyosha and Ivan could probably be taken as a biblical metaphor, albeit unorthodox. I feel that these two could be compared to the innocent pre-apple Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge itself, respectively. Ivan seems to have suddenly realized where he stands in the world around him, while Alyosha is still innocent and optimistic and even wholesome. I'm not sure if the author did this on purpose, or if it's even like this in the rest of the book, but it certainly makes for an interesting dynamic in this chapter. Again, I apologize for the last minute post but as you'll find with me, I could think about something for months and still not be entirely set on how I feel on it."
ReplyDeleteTaylor Becchetti
ReplyDeletePersonally I found this chapter much more difficult to understand than the previous one. The dialogue between Ivan and Alyosha holds mostly clear messages, but the stories about Jesus and the Inquisitor were very difficult for me to get through. I had to go back and re-read them many times before I could pull what I think to be the true meaning out of them.
Overall I think the point of Ivan's poem is to show that he feels humans are liable to feeling inferior, because the bar has been set so high by Jesus himself. He wants Alyosha to understand that some people are swayed by the lack of Godliness in the world. Ivan speaks about how miracles are abundant but rarely ever believed, and that God was once spoken about in literature and in everyday conversation quite often. But, now he is hardly ever mentioned and the human race as a whole is suffering because of this.
Ivan later leads us to believe that he has totally pushed God out of his life because he no longer sees the miracles, or the greatness of the Lord. He says things such as "It's simple lust of power, of filth, earthly gain..." in reference to Catholicism. His words once again confuse me. I wonder why he feels at one point that God is great but because he is so great it makes him not want to fall under his religion.
Ivan claims he is going to finally leave the town, and his words "There is a strength enough to endure everything" show that this decision was not easy for him, and that he had to gather up all his strength and knowledge to be able to force himself away from his brother who he loves dearly.
Chiara Elwood says: I found it very helpful to read about the Spanish Inquisition. I think it is interesting that the same monarch, Isabella I of Castile, who was forward-thinking enough to fund Christopher Columbus's voyage around the world also started an inquisition that led to the deaths and expulsions of thousands of Jews, Muslims, and Protestants from Spain. (Basically anyone not Catholic). And now back to what I thought of the chapter.
ReplyDeleteI am struggling to put into words what I think, and I do not want to delve too deeply into the religious side of this chapter. Not that I don't have an opinion on the religion here, but for now I will keep church separate from the rest of the story. It wasn't the poem that struck me the most, but the relationship between the brothers that is paralleled by the poem. Alyosha cannot offer a response to Ivan's critique of God, similarly Christ says nothing during the Inquisitor's critique. I found that Alyosha paralleled Christ in many ways. Just as Christ kissed the Inquisitor's mouth, a symbol of love and faith, Alyosha kisses the mouth of Ivan, a representation of Alyosha's innate faith.
I think that there is a certain beauty about this writing; it is dark and intriguing. I love the passage that describes the night in Seville. "The day passes and is followed by the dark, burning, 'breathless' night of Seville. The air is 'fragrant with laurel and lemon.'" I don't know what it is about this description that I love so much. Maybe it is because of my trip to southern France where the nights smelled of lavender and sage. This passage triggered my memory and took me back to a night in Europe. Much of this writing is very deep and thought provoking. As I read I found myself pondering many of the quotations; it really made me think!
Oh, and this belated thought from Richter: The quotation that I found the most interesting in this reading was, “But man seeks to worship what is established beyond dispute, so that all men would agree at once to worship it... For the sake of common worship they've slain each other with the sword. They have set up gods and challenged one another, "Put away your gods and come and worship ours, or we will kill you and your gods!" I thought this was a really interesting way to state the human race’s fascination with religion and gods. Everyone fights and wars break out over whose religion and gods are better. I don’t really have a dog in the fight because I don’t believe in either religion or gods, so it just seems sort of ludicrous to me. It’s like children in a playground fighting over whose imaginary friend is better: “Mine has 8 arms!”, “Mine can create life!”, and “Mine controls the weather!” But on a much larger scale with all of humanity, people choose to kill each other over it. It’s interesting to think that a subconscious goal of this is to find a common worship and express unity as a race within it. I’m sure people would find other things to fight over, but with religion being the major cause of war worldwide, I wonder if a common worship would decrease conflict. I should think so, but until then, everyone will continue to fight over who wrote the better book.
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